Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Any electricians out there? pics inside
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=2904		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  John Elshaw [ Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Now that I'm almost settled into the new house, I'm looking to see how I can get 220 power for a dust collector in the basement. I was just looking around the breaker box before I call an electrician, and came up with a few questions thinking I might be able to do the job myself.

In my breakerbox, I have what is labled spares, 2 CB's, one on top of the other, labled 20 each. They look too small to be used for 2-20 power, but I'm not sure. Don't they normally use 2 breakers, side-by-side?



As luck would have it, the spares are wired to the exact location in the basement where I want the dust collector. Here's a pic of the receptacle:



It's two, 14/2 wires going into the box. What is the standard used for 220 wiring? Is this just a matter of wiring up the receptacle for 220, or is there more? My main question is I'm really not sure about the power from the CB's. Can anybody shed a little light here?

Thanks!

John
Author:  Bobc [ Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:46 am ]
Post subject: 
John that looks like just two spare 110 lines to add lights or 110 outlets. The 14 ga. wire is too small IMHO. What you need is one 3 wire with ground. So you would have a white, black, red and copper wire. Depending on how far you have to run a minimum of 12 ga. wire. You can remove those 2 spare breakers and replace with one double pole breaker. Check the amps on your motor. You probably can get by with a 20amp double pole breaker. PS I'm no electrcian but have wired my shop and house. Bobc38584.8245833333
Author:  Don A [ Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:04 am ]
Post subject: 
John, check with Bruce. He is our local electrical expert.
Author:  EBarajas [ Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
John, most 220v lines use # 10/3 with ground(red,blk,wht, and ground) and most likely a double 30amp breaker with the switches tied together with a bar so they trip at the same time. you should be able to replace that top single with a mini double. Depending on the Motor hp you may be able to get away with a double 20amp with # 12/3 with ground, check the motor requirements. usually 30amp would require #10/3 and 20amp 12/3. 20amp setups are usually for things such as large room airconditioners with heatstrips inside and so forth. Normaly the breakers need to make contact with both buss bars inside the electrical panel one buss bar for each breaker thus 110v + 110v = 220v.
Author:  John Elshaw [ Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
The motor is a 5 HP Leeson motor, 230 Volts, 20.8 FLA. It's a single phase motor also.

I don't understand why I would want to replace the top single with a mini double. The only spare on the panel are the two mini 20's right in the middle.

Thanks!

John
Author:  EBarajas [ Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
John, I miss read your post about the spare mini double, replace that with the 30amp mini double and you should be ok.
Author:  RCoates [ Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
The mini doubles are just to gain space in a full breaker box.

To wire the motor you listed you'll need:

In the cicuit box, two full size slots. One on top of the other. As Ed said this is so that the 220v breaker can attach to both bus bars in the box... 110 + 110 = 220

These two slots are to be occuppied by one 30amp 220volt breaker. The breaker must be 30amps because it must withstand 125% of your FLA rating on the motor (20.8 amps)

Your wiring should be 10 guage. Max voltage on 12 guage is 20 amps. 30 amps on 10 guage.

The wire will be four conductors in the sheath red, white, black and bare copper. commonly called 10-3 w/ground

Wire the cicuit breaker box last. You should have a "main" breaker that will kill voltage to the breaker box but I would say don't trust it completely. Work with one hand in your pocket when working in the breaker box. This sounds silly but it will reduce your chances of having a fatal accident. ALWAYS wear safety glasses!

Last but not least remember a neutral (white) wire can and will bite you given the right circumstances.

I spent five years as a commercial electrician and the absolute best advice I can offer is, run all the wire even wire the outlet if you're comfortable doing so, but when working in the breaker box if you have ANY doubts call a pro. Probably about the same cost as your emergency room deductable.

Good luck
Author:  RCoates [ Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Another thought:

depending on the capacity of your breaker box you could instead put a 50 amp 220v breaker in and run it to a sub-panel in your basement (w/ 8 guage wire). From there you could feed your dust collector and still have room for a few 120v 20 amp circuits.


Just a thought.
Author:  Dickey [ Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Probably about the same cost as your emergency room deductible. Ronn

Ronn, I like that. Hey. any more questions? You can run 220 on that 14 guage wire, but only 15 amps, not recommended.(holy smoke) 14 is typically used for lighting. (Actually you can use it... to pull in the number 10 cable)

Lots of 220 circuits have only two conductors, some actually have a bare ground wire. But any more, code calls for an ungrounded conductor, plus a ground wire (4 wires)

I read over the stuff above and it appears correct.

Remember: There are old electricians. There are bold electricians. But, there are no old, bold electricians.

In our area, cutting the meter seal, and pulling the meter will kill the power to the box. Some areas have a whole house disconnect near the outside meter, required in many areas by the fire dept. But there are folk that feel comfortable working in a live box, done it many times, but in certain cases the only thing to do is pull the meter. A call when you are done to the electrical company to replace the seal is a good idea. You could probably even call and get permission to remove the seal during a work session. Electricity is one of those areas where you should know what you are doing before you do it. If you aren't sure, get a pro to help you. It's an investment in your future. Since this is a work area, surface run conduit and circuit probably wouldn't be out of place too bad.
Dickey38584.9853009259
Author:  Kevin Gallagher [ Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
   Be careful when considering bypassing a licensed or, at least exoerienced electrician when running 220 or any current to machinery. You should have 10-3w/grd or at the minimum 12 guage wire running to your system depending on its motor size and amperage draw.

   I've done all of the wiring in my shops over the years, but worked as a licensed electrician in NJ for several years while I worked with my Dad and uncle doing alot of the work in homes that they did contracting on. We had to learn it all from plumbing to electrical to stone, brick and block masonry, framing, siding and concrete work as well as central heat and cooling installation. So much of it all during my early years has kept me from doing as much as I could in my later years. I enjoyed the electrical work best since it was pretty clean and didn't involve as much heavy back breaking work as the other facets of building. Very attractive to young guy on a construction site in the middle of the summer.

   Those 22o lines do use two breakers side by side, but not separate breakers. The two will be connected in a double throw situation, but will take up two spaces on the rails in the panels with each pulling 110v to accumulate the 220v total. Having a line run professionally won't run you as much as the deductible on your home owner's policy after the fire, so it may be the best and wisest option.

Just my opinion,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega GuitarsKevin Gallagher38585.0024537037
Author:  John Elshaw [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Good advice all around guys. I plan on hiring a pro for the work in the breaker box--but I think I will surely run the wire and the outlets myself.

I just thought of something--I plan on adding a drum sander in the not too distant future. How would you all recommend handing this before I end up with the wrong wire through all my walls?

Thanks again for all your help, cheers!

John
Author:  Bobc [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:45 am ]
Post subject: 
John with that sized motor I would run 10 ga. wire. Better safe than sorry. As for tjhe drum sander it depends on whether it's running on 110 or 220.
Author:  RussellR [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:05 am ]
Post subject: 
HI John

I am not familiar with the electrical regulations, your side of the pond. If I was doing it over hear I would run a Sub Main into the workshop area on a breaker that can take 50/60 amp with the correct cable size for this Ampage. Then you can do as you like at that end and have lots of capacity for expansion. Is this possible under US systems ?

Author:  Jerry Hossom [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:11 am ]
Post subject: 
I use a sub panel in my shop and I can tell you it has saved me a lot of money over the years, since I didn't need to run a new line from the main to add new equipment which will ALWAYS be necessary. The only reason to make things is so you can buy new toys to do it with, right?

BTW, I think this is especially true with 220. You'll use it more than you might expect. Every motor I've tried that can be wired with either 110 or 220 runs a LOT stronger with 220.
Author:  John Elshaw [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Here are the specs on the drum sander motor I have my eye on:

Sanding Drum Motor - 3HP, 110/220VAC, 30/15A, 3,450 RPM - 2 "V" belt drive (18 long power cord included, plug not included).

So does that mean it's 110 or 220, or can operate at either? Now you see why I'm calling in a pro for the breaker box, but if I can at least run the correct wire, that should save me a few bucks.

John
Author:  Jerry Hossom [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:32 am ]
Post subject: 
That means it can run on either 110 or 220, and as I said above I think you'll be MUCH happier if it runs on 220.
Author:  Dickey [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:15 am ]
Post subject: 
Any unit that can run on 220 will be slightly more efficient. There is one negative with 220, it takes two box spaces. 220 volts, means lower amps for the same motor over 110, which means you use smaller wire.

Breakers generally are figured at 80 percent for constant use. So a twenty amp breaker should have 16 amps max in constant use. A little confusing, but it makes sense.

So, if you hook a 20 Amp 220 device on a 20 Amp 220 breaker with 12 AWG wire rated at 20 amps, it might trip, and that's why. You really need a little wiggle room on circuit ampacity.
Author:  RCoates [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:18 am ]
Post subject: 
That's right 110 at 30 amps or 220 at 15 amps. I would do as I and others have suggested and run a 50 amp subpanel off of your main into the basement. Sounds like you will be money ahead if you do. That would require 8 guage wire from your main to the sub, then wire your equipment from the sub-panel as normal.

Here's the thing, don't guess on the proper guage of wire either for a sub-panel or individual equipment. If you get it wrong you risk a fire. If you want more info at your fingertips go to a electrical supply house and buy an "Ugly Book". It has most everything you will need in it. All the info is based on the National Electric Code (NEC).

When you wire a circuit for a motor look for the FLA (full load amps) rating then size your wire and your plug for for the appropriate amperage. Going bigger is ok smaller is not. As to the breaker it needs to be of a rating sufficient to handle 125% of your FLA. You can fudge this just a bit. Say FLA x 125% = 27 amps you could probably get by with a 25 amp breaker. Probably. The reason we go up to 125% of FLA is to compensate for the increased amperage draw at start up. Most breakers require a somewhat sustained load above their rating before they trip. That is what lets us fudge the numbers just a bit.

Hope this helps
Author:  RCoates [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:22 am ]
Post subject: 
What Mr Dickey said is correct too... Confusing aint it?
Author:  RussellR [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:19 am ]
Post subject: 
The other Advantage of the Sub Main route is you then have a box you can totally isolate, so any future instalations are not in a live situation.

If you wnat to go this route you could pull in the wire yourself and wire the new board etc. Then get your Electrician to do the termination the Main Board.

Any future installation could then be handled in a total isolated enviroment.

Author:  Dickey [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:44 am ]
Post subject: 
I completely agree that a shop subpanel off the main is the way to go.

Breakers are there for one reason to protect wire. Anything that would overheat the wire will trip the breaker. They also serve to kill the circuit, but that's secondary to protecting wire.

Even if you get the load off, if you have the breaker and wire correctly matched, your wire is safe. Of course, if you are constantly tripping breakers, that defeats the purpose. It's not hard to get it right, and you will have trouble free service.

John, sometimes I pull in the size cable I need with a spare cable like your 14/2 wg. Done it several times, providing the staples don't have you snagged.
Author:  John Elshaw [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hmm, now you guys really have me thinking. What is it that determines the proper wiring size? For example, one of the dust collectors I'm looking at is the Oneida 3Hp single phase, 115/230v - 28/14 amp motor. Since it can run at 115, would it be ok through a normal outlet in the house as long as the breaker were upgraded on the main panel?

My big dilemma is that I will be in this house less than 3 years (that's how the military works) and I would rather put the money toward the dust collection system until I get to my final house (one more move). If there's a safe way to run a system off 115, that saves me more $$$ which I could put toward dust collection--money I know will help my lungs in the long run. I can wait on the drum sander and 220 wiring until my next house as long as the air is safe.

It's a delicate balancing act. What size dust collectors are you all running off 115 or 220?

Thanks again!

John
Author:  Dickey [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
230v 28amp motor, won't work on household wiring.

Household wiring is typically 20 Amp, you're over that.

Now, here is the math 30 Amps 110 v circuit with number 10 AWG wiring. 30 times 80% gives you only 24 amps, as you see, that's not enough ampacity.

So, punt on the 110 service, go for the 220.

230 at 14 amps, okay, looks like you need a 20 Amp 220 double pole breaker and at least 12/2wg awg nmc. In areas that require an equipment ground, you'll need 12/3wg awg. 20 times your 80%, yields 16 amps, you only need 14 to run your motor. case closed.

Head to Lowes, or Home Depot and it's time to wire this baby up.
Author:  Cocephus [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
John, What burg do you live in? I`m about 20 miles south of FT Wayne. If your`e wanting to save some bucks and want to trade off wood, I`d be willing to help you out. Have experience in running electrical, but would like to see first hand just what it is you have.
Author:  John Elshaw [ Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Okay, I'm getting down to my last couple questions. Since the motor is 115/230v, 28/14 amps, under what conditions would it be ideal to run the collector on 115 instead of 230? Since the motor can run on either 115 or 230, there must be some combination that is okay for 115 right, or am I still missing something?

Thanks!

John
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/